--- In email@example.com, "jimdohertyjr" <jimdohertyjr@...> .
> What it sounds like you're saying is that "noir" is something that
> has to be strived for. If it doesn't reach a certan level of
> quality, sophistication, and subtlety, it doesn't get to enter the
Jim, that's not what I'm saying. Quality doesn't come into. I defined
my idea of noir earlier, and Sin City didn't fit it. Hartigan is a heroic character--he doesn't cross any moral line to doom himself, with him it's self-sacrifice. Even though Marv ends up in the electric chair, I don't see his story as fatalistic, but more redemptive. Again, these stories felt to me as hardboiled-pulp, not noir, but populated by prototypical characters out of a noir universe. Take that as you will.
> If it's just a cliched rehash of familiar elements, it falls short of
> being noir.
> That sounds rather like saying that SILVERADO, for example, falls
> short of being an actual western because it's merely an affectionate
> rehash of elements from western fiction with which we're all
> familiar. Or that THE BIG RED ONE, with its tough professional non-
> com, its callow young man who grows up in the crucible of combat, and
> its multi-ethnic squad of soldiers from all over America, somehow
> falls short of being an actual war story because it simply rehashes
> the elements of dozens of examples of military fiction.
Again, you're taking me out of context. I wouldn't argue that
Silverado isn't a western, just that it's not a very good western.
Btw. I also wouldn't argue that westerns can't be noir, especially
with Ed Gorman and I co-editing an upcoming anthology of western noir
stories. (plug ended...)
> "Spillane isn't really hard-boiled because he's too cartoonish."
> Spillane not hard-boiled? Come on! If you don't like him you don't
> like him, but if he's not hard-boiled, water isn't wet.
I've never argued (nor would I) that Spillane isn't hardboiled. I'm a
fan (just as I am of Hammett, Willeford, Jim Thompson, James M. Cain,
Dan Marlowe, Jonathan Latimer, etc.) --in fact Charles uses a quote of
mine on his Hardcase book.
> Discussing the actual works is, I think, what this list should be
Okay, let's discuss an actual work--I'm currently reading Crimini
published by Bitter Lemon Press, which is a collection of Italian
crime fiction, and it's quite good, several of the stories fit my idea
of noir. I'll be writing more about this when I finish the book, but
I'm finding myself more and more hooked with some of the newer Italian
crime authors--Reasonable Doubts by Gianrico Carofiglio was one of my
favorite reads from last year.
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