Kerry,
Re your comments below:
> Sorry Jim. He said optimists will NOT find what
they're looking for
in noir.
Yes, but it doesn't follow that all that is non-optimistic
is, perforce, pessimistic. There's a middle ground.
> Yes, I believe you've just said what I said about
what he said.
Cool.
No, I CORRECTED what you said.
> Actually, I don't think I've every heard or read you
saying that
[dark & siniter is inherent in noir], but if
> so, I'm happily wrong, because here you're saying
that the dark and
> sinister quality is more than atmospherics, which
are invoked in
many other
> forms of literature, possibly embodied in them all
in the form of
the
> antagonist. The phrase "dark and sinister" is by
itself inadequate,
being
> too general.
If I say that a dark and sinister atmosphere is the defining
element, it follows that it MUST be an inherent element. I
don't know whether or not I ever said "inherent" explicitly,
though I may have. If I didn't it's because, like "crime
fiction," it was clearly implicit.
> And I think the difference is more than degree- as
you say:
inherent as
> opposed to anomalous. What makes a dark and sinister
atmosphere
inherent in
> noir? Others have suggested it is that the
characters, chiefly the
> protagonist is doomed, or screwed, but I agree with
you that this
is too
> narrow. Often the protagonist appears to triumph,
solving his case
or
> whatever. But in noir the case may be solved, but at
a price for
the
> protagonist, or the story is resolved in such a way
as to
illustrate the
> ultimate limitations of human existence. Good may be
served for the
moment,
> but evil remains to take it's pound of flesh perhaps
in other ways,
or at
> other times. This is why I've suggested that noir
can be defined as
> non-transcendent, as opposed to other forms of
literature.
>
> I don't think anyone on the list is saying that noir
and hardboil
are
> mutually exclusive, or have I missed
something?
Plenty of people have suggested, or explicitly insisted, that
hard- boiled and noir are mutually exclusive concepts. If you
insist, I can find the references.
Aside from that, I find little to disagree with in the above
paragraph. I don't believe that "noir" is, by definition,
"non- transcendant," nor do I believe that all "noir" fiction
shares a common philosophical premise.
But I do agree that in fiction deemed Either hard-boiled or
noir, there is always the sense that justice only wins on a
case-by-case basis, and only because of the efforts
determined individuals, NOT because it is an immutable force
that will not be denied. And very often, justice doesn't even
make a token appearance, even if strong efforts are being
expended on its behalf.
But that's not a philosophical belief; that's just real
life.
JIM DOHERTY
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