At 02:01 PM 01/10/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>Because that's the root of how the term came to
be
>used in the crime genre. If they coined it as a
term
>used to identify a particular kind of mystery, then
it
>follows that their usage is the correct usage,
because
>they were the first to use it. The parameters
they
>set are the parameters most people still use. So,
if
>you use the word to mean something much
more
>restrictive, it follows that you must be using
it
>incorrectly.
Yeah, I understand your argument Jim. I just disagree with
it. And I accept that by your definition I am wrong. I can
live with that. I don't have to agree with it to value
it.
>Writing is a creative activity, but categorizing
a
>piece of writing isn't, unless you allow yourself
to
>get bogged down in a lot os intellectual bullshit
that
>really doesn't have anything to do with the
question.
That's where you're wrong. Criticism and categorization are
as creative as the original writing itself. There is no
ultimate authority to appeal to, in noir or anything else.
That (according to my definition) is exactly the point of
noir. Just because someone is the first to come up with a
term doesn't mean that's the end of the discussion.
And don't give me this BS about you not caring how many
angels dance on the head of a pin. You care passionately. You
can't leave this discussion alone, by your own admission. You
just don't like it when someone comes up with a different
number than you do.
>As the folks at Gallimard used it, and as it's
been
>used since, noir is ALREADY got pretty
extensive
>parameters. In fact that's what you say your
problem
>with their use is, it's TOO extensive, so why is
a
>writer "extending the definition" a good thing,
from
>your perspective. My impression is that you're one
of
>those who wants it tight and narrow. And why is
noir
>something that has to be "transcended" anyway? Is
it
>some kind of trap the writer has to escape
from?
Yes, I think your definition is too broad to be useful. Isn't
crime and murder itself considered dark in western culture?
So what then separates noir from other crime fiction? Tragedy
is dark too, atmospherically. So what separates noir from
tragedy as well? Even in the classic love-story plot, between
meeting and getting the girl, boy briefly loses her. That too
could be said to be atmospherically dark. In fact, in western
literature plot hinges on conflict. You say it's enough that
there are dark atmospherics in the story, but the presence of
conflict suggests dark atmospherics in almost every story. I
respect your research into the works and sources you site,
(and you inspire me to want to do more of that myself, time
permitting) but the conclusion you come to regarding the
definition is, quite simply, useless.
Now, I didn't say I thought the genre needed transcending. I
think I said it was interesting to discuss whether a
particular work fell within or without the genre. In fact, in
response to the notion that some non-fans of the genre have
about noir, I think that by discussing the role the genre
plays in the literature of the western world (in my limited
understanding of it at least) it quickly becomes evident that
the genre does NOT need to be transcended as a vehicle toward
understanding the human condition. Quite the opposite. There
is plenty of room for examining humanity within the genre,
even by my definition, and plenty of room to extend that
discussion, showing the many ways in which we are all
screwed, or try to avoid that screwing. It's good when a
writer extends the definition, even in unexpected ways,
because it presents new and exciting ideas, things we hadn't
considered before. When this is accomplished, we grow. This
is why I value your input, even as I disagree with your
definition. But to make this work we have to be able to
compare AND contrast with other genres. Simply saying "it's
all good" (or even "it's all bad") is pointless, and that's
where I think "noir is dark atmospherics, nothing more or
less" takes us.
Next time, it's your turn to say "Schooley you ignorant
slut," assuming I can afford Wisconsin, and I don't get
stopped at the border.
Best, Kerry
------------------------------------------------------
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This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : 02 Oct 2005 EDT