The debate is interesting for its own sake. All this stuff is
categorization after or during the fact, simply to help
readers who like the stuff know when something similar comes
along. In that way it's useful to both commercial interests
and to us, so we can agree on what we're talking about. Not
that we ever will. Jim finds my definition too narrow, and I
can live with that. I suspect he's been wrong before. I think
his definition is too broad to be of much use. Jim suspects
I've been wrong before. And we both agree on the definition
of hard boiled and its relationship to noir, so we know we've
both been right before too.
But it's possible this debate gets tiresome the fourth or
fifth time around. Any way we can summarize and post the main
positions as sort of an entry to RA, Bill? I know all the
discussions, mutilations and permutations run through the
archives again and again, but if anyone actually read it all
before subscribing to RA, they might think we're just a bunch
of needle-headed nerds who take all the fun out of reading
the genre and never sign on. That can't be right.
Best, Kerry
At 01:01 PM 30/09/2005 -0700, you wrote:
>Mr. Harrington,
>
>I've been staying out of this discussion, as I
have
>the last five or six times it's come up, because
I
>don't see the point in trotting out the same
arguments
>about what "noir" means, as applied to crime
fiction,
>ad infinitum. But one comment you made struck
me:
>
> > Someone mentioned the use of the Noir "label"
as a
> > marketing tool,this is unfortunate, but
is
> > indicative of how advanced capitalist society
treats
> > the arts. It tries to commoditize them
like
> > everything else. And to a large degree it's
been
> > successful. The end result is the
Walmartization of
> > the novel. (And, also, I fear the beginning of
the
> > end of the third person in the commercial
novel.)
>
>This implies that "noir" had some kind of pure
meaning
>that commerce has somehow vitiated, and that's
just
>wrong.
>
>The fact of the matter is that "noir," as applied
to
>the mystery, started out (and in fact is still
used)
>as nothing more than a brand name. Serie Noir was
the
>mystery line of the French publisher Gallimard.
And
>all a book had to have to get classified as noir,
as
>far as Gallimard's mystery editor, Marcel Duhamel,
was
>concerned, was have a dark and sinister
atmosphere.
>As someone else put it, it had to show that the
world,
>at least for the characters in that book, was a
dark
>place.
>
>There was no requirement of "doom,"
"fate,"
>"inexorable forces," or any of that crap. Lots of
the
>books Duhamal published had that, sure, but
lots
>didn't. Hammett, Chandler, Burnett, McBain,
even
>Richard S. Prather, were all published under the
Serie
>Noir logo.
>
>To say that noir means something more than a dark
and
>sinister atmosphere pervading the story, and
that's
>really all that the books published, and
being
>published, under the Serie Noir logo had and have
in
>common, is to say that the people who coined the
term,
>and applied it to the mystery genre (and who coined
it
>and applied it for strictly commerical reasons),
used
>it incorrectly. Frankly, that just seems ludicrous
on
>its face.
>
>I get tired as hell of all this parsing and
nattering
>about what the line of demarcation is
between
>"hard-boiled" and "noir." There IS no line
of
>demarcation. There's stuff that's noir, and
stuff
>that's hard-boiled, and stuff that's both. And
the
>definitions aren't, and never have been, that
narrow.
>
>If you want to talk about crime fiction that has
a
>nihilistic bent in which the character, no matter
what
>he does, is doomed to a bad end, go ahead. If
you
>want to say that's what consitutes noir, well I
guess
>nothing I say will convince you, or anyone
else
>otherwise. But to say that the intrusion of
filthy
>commerce into the pure world of noir is a recent
and
>polluting phenomenon is just to ignore the history
of
>the term.
>
>Let me add that, despite the fact that my
only
>contribution this month has been to disagree with
you,
>I am very grateful for your participation on the
site
>and for your insights and contributions
here.
>
>JIM DOHERTY
>
>
>
>
>
>
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