Dave,
Yes. I'm sure you're right; there are times where Doom
is given the upper hand in Jim's work. No doubt about
it.
kent
Dave Zeltserman <
davezelt@comcast.net> wrote: Kent,
Some very interesting thoughts on the subject, but I'm not
sure that Thompson's noir protagonist so much as held hope up
to the face of doom, as having it pulled out from under their
feet like some dirty little rug. I'm thinking of Dusty Rhodes
in Swell-Looking Babe, Carl Bogelow from Savage Night and
Frank Dillon from Hell of a Woman, all grasping for whatever
hope they can get a glimmer of only to have it ripped away.
Lou Ford was a little different, maybe with him that holds,
but too many other Thompson noir protagonists I can think
of.
Dave Z.
--- In
rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com, Kukana Fields
<kukanafields@y...> wrote:
>
> I've been reading the thoughts concerning the
definition of Noir
>
> for the last few weeks with rapt attention. The
subject is dear to
my heart. And I wanted very much to throw my two cents in, as
I believe the discussion is a very important one. If we don't
know, and appreciate our traditions, literary or otherwise,
how can we preserve them from an environment in the US that
is so very hostile to art, literature etc.
>
>
>
> Someone mentioned the use of the Noir "label" as a
marketing
tool,this is unfortunate, but is indicative of how advanced
capitalist society treats the arts. It tries to commoditize
them like everything else. And to a large degree it's been
successful. The end result is the Walmartization of the
novel. (And, also, I fear the beginning of the end of the
third person in the commercial novel.)
>
>
>
> I agreed with much that has been said on the way to
a definition
but there is one remark, very elegant idea (I apologize for
not noting who said it) but it was that noir somehow went
beyond the idea of tragedy especially the classical idea of
tragedy: being that a great person is fallen by events, some
of which are of his own making etc.
>
>
>
> I think this break with the old idea of tragedy came
last century
as part of existentialism, modern notions of psychology, and
the new idea of alienation. All these forces-- and others--
come into play as we start the 20th century. And, I think all
these forces take us to, and are part of, the important works
in the US that we agree form the foundation for American
Noir. Thompson et. al.
>
>
>
> How did Doom get into the picture-- something that
Classical
tragedy I don't think contains? Well I believe it was the
natural byproduct of the 20th century's great hope-- the
advent of modern notions of democracy sold to us by the press
etc., and subsequent realization that a lot of this talk of
Democracy was a lie. (Today 60% of the American people are
against the war in Iraq, yet Bush says we will stay.) This
feeling of Doom -- not death-- was produced by the First
World War, the birth of Fascism and finally Monopoly
Capitalism's war mongering during the Cold War, Vietnam
etc.
>
>
>
> This whole thing is further complicated by the
growth of the
science of psychology which is so obviously important to
Thompson with his creation of Lou Smith. So we have a duality
here: the individual is growing in consciousness during the
20th century and there is social progress, but at the
sometime wham, we're hit with forces that are so brutal and
disgusting to the human spirit that man sees Doom ahead. The
noir character goes right up to Doom and walks through it if
you will. That's what I believe Thompson and others did,
walked right up to it and held hope up against Doom's face.
You see Hope, I believe, has to be part of the equation
because it's in man's nature. You can not separate man from
hope, that's impossible. So in the end, ironically, I think
Noir is about a growth in human awareness/consciousness. I
think it means we have a chance. We have hope. It means we're
willing to face the ugly things in life and go on from there.
OK, so it was four cents.
>
>
>
> kent
>
>
>
>
> Dave Zeltserman <davezelt@c...>
wrote:!)
> >
> > But you're not looking for noir in these
stories Dave. By your
> definition,
> > you're looking for tragedy in dungarees. If you
don't accept
noir as
> a
> > genre distinct from tragedy, you can't expect
to recognize it
when
> you come
> > across it.
> >
>
> I don't get your point, Kerry - I thought in my
posts I was making
a
> fairly explicit distinction between tragedy and
noir?? Don't quite
get
> the tragedy in dungarees reference
either.
>
> Dave Z.
>
>
>
>
>
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