At 11:08 AM 11/09/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>Being a slacker & a lurker, I just had to put my
two cents in.
>
>Last Wednesday Kerry J. Schooley wrote:
>"Most other genres suggest that if the
protagonist
>behaves a certain way, they will transcend the human
dilemma. Love conquers
>all. Work hard and apply yourself and you will
succeed. Have sufficient
>faith and you will be rewarded, if not on earth than
in heaven. Ditto the
>"moral" path. Tragedy suggests the same thing by
taking a negative
>approach. Do wrong and you will fail. If not for
indecision, Hamlet would
>have fared better, found happiness with Ophilia or
something."
>
>Naw, that's not tragedy. Tragedy is the Rebel going
up against Cosmic
>Forces and (somewhere along the way) discovering he
has to lose, that
>there's no way this side of Hell he could win, but
what the hell he'll do
>it and then he'll pay it. That's why Tragic Heroes
are better than the
>rest of us smucks. The Tragic Hero pays the Big
Price.
Naw, that's noir. The key phrase being "he has to
lose."
>What are the Cosmic Forces? These are forces greater
than any human.
>Things like: the Gods, God, Destiny, Fate, Karma,
Random Chance, Lady
>Luck, Dame Fortune, Las Vegas...
>
>That French fry guy Albert Camus once pointed out
(after he fell in love
>with James Cain's Postman) that tragedies only
occurred twice in bulk:
>once with the ancient Greeks and once in 16th century
Europe (Spanish
>blood tragedies & Eliuzabethean mostly
co-existed.) In each case, you had
>Human Beings as pawns in a brawl between Religion and
Reason, (i.e.,
>between the Gods & One Human Smuck "who won't
play the sap for you.")
>
>The tragedy of Oedipus is he refuses to accept that
the Gods determined
>his Destiny; at the end he says, "Apollo did this to
me," and the grumpy
>chump is happily accepting it. Sophocles was a
military man and a
>conservative; give me those old time religious
values, he was saying at a
>time when Democracy was threatening that old
Oligarchy.
Exactly. But there was an option for transcendence- if he HAD
accepted the Gods etc. That's the notion of a tragic flaw. Of
course, if he had accepted the Gods' predetermined destiny
for him, there' d have been no story.
>The tragedy of Hamlet is not his indecision; from his
first big meet with
>the ghostie, his job is clear ("Kill the guy who
murdered the old king.")
>But when the Prince becomes a political assassin,
well, that's not
>following the Cosmic Order, and Hamlet knows he will
pay the heaviest
>price. His Indecision is his debating with himself,
"Man, is this my only
>honest way out?" Just before he goes into that stupid
swordfighting
>thingie with Laertes, Hamlet talks about God's
Providence. ('Member how
>the Old Man with a White Beard watches out for
Sparrows? That's
>Providence. As opposed to Deism, which says, God was
here, but He split
>for Tijuana, so the Game's been rigged all
along.)
Okay. But if he had accepted Providence, he'd have been
rewarded, in heaven one expects, if not on earth, with a nice
little principality or some such.
>As for Romeo & Juliet, nobody back then gave a
damn about the puppies
>croaking. Look at the play. The first scene and the
last scene talk about
>how the FAMILIES fucked up. The families should have
put their puppies on a
>shorter leash. Only now, in our puppy love American
culture, does anybody
>weep for R & J. The real tragedy is how the two
wealthy familes screwed up
>their jobs. That last scene where the Prince of
Verona bitches out the
>families book-ends the real sorrow.
But the families fucked up, and tragedy ensued. Had they not
fucked up, the suggestion is they would have transcended
street warfare.
>What noir does is bring tragedy to the little
guy.
Yes, that too.
> Look at Steinbeck's Of
>Mice and Men; it's Every Man (and Every Mouse, I
suppose) doomed and
>screwed. You got plowed under by Cosmic Forces
greater than you. Imagine
>Charlie Chaplin's The Little Tramp in a noir
relationship with some blind
>chick. Easy to picture, right? Aw, man, that tragedy
is downright
>inevitable, too. The Little Tramp's gonna pull the
trigger. And then it's
>Old Smokey for him in the last reel. In noir, the
little guy doesn't know
>he has to pay for ending "that rotton smell in
Denmark." In noir, is it,
>well, pathetic? Maybe. But also
fascinating.
>
>"...only noir denies the possibility of
transcendence."
>
>If so, that's because Noir removed God from the
equation.
>
>Maybe yes. The Flitcraft parable makes sense after
Hammett's daughter (in
>her memoirs) states that her dad believed Random
Chance rules the Universe.
>(That's a sort of religious statement, much as
atheism is a religious
>statement.) Raised Catholic, Hammett became a
Behaviorist, I suppose.
>
>Which makes Sam Spade's comment at the end
that:
>"Next, I've no reason in God's world to think I
can
>trust you and if I did this and got away with it
you'd
>have something on me that you could use whenever
you
>happened to want to."
>
>So he has to live in this world, too?
>
>If you think talking about religion is wandering off,
Kerry J. Schooley also
>wrote:
>"Is Brigid Shaughnessy better off for
Spade's
>morality? Don't think so. Do people take the lesson
and end the obsessive
>pursuit of false idolatry? Not the Fat Man and his
gang. "
>
>False idolatry? Hmm, no strange gods before us? First
Commandment, right?
>What's the one about Murder? Maybe we should ask Pat
Robertson, speaking
>about Political Assassination.
>
>Best to all, and back to football...
>
>Frederick Zackel
>
>"Our best work you seem to disappear into completely
like a love affair."
There you go. Tragedy and noir similar, but not the same.
Failure to transcend is tragedy. Impossible to transcend is
noir. One is sad, the other comic.
Best, Kerry
------------------------------------------------------
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