Al Guthrie wrote: Don't get hung up on Jim's definition,
Steve. Some of us have our own definitions. In my case, I
don't see how you can separate noir from character. Applied
to atmosphere only, Jim's definition describes Gothic, not
noir. In noir, the sinister element comes from the
character's perception of the world (a worldview which is
often twisted and paranoid -- 'noirotic', if you will). And
Jim's definition doesn't take into account the mortality of
the protagonist, which is hugely important in (and possibly
even fundamental to) noir
(as Russell James once pointed out). I see the difference
between hardboiled and noir in the reaction to events. For
example, when a hardboiled character is shot it makes him
angry and acts as a spur to further acts of toughness; when a
noir character's shot he spends the rest of the book dying
(if he's shot in the foot, he'll prod and poke and eventually
the wound will become infected). To respond to your original
post, Steve, I'd agree that Chandler's hardboiled, but I see
Marlowe operating in a hardboiled (not noir) world.
*************** This is my perception also, and Paul Duncan
parallels it in his NOIR FICTION book. Duncan differentiates
between the hardboiled and noir protagonist by psyche, degee
of control, and location. The hardboiled protag is barely in
control and perched on the edge of the abyss. The noir protag
has lost control and is swimming in the abyss. From his
viewpoint, Chandler and Hammett wrote hardboiled, not noir.
Mario paralled this when he stated that (paraphrased) Hammett
is simply too tough to be noir.
Duncan states:
"Noir is not a kind of macho Hard-Boiled fiction where Tough
Guys pass moral judgement on an immoral society.
Noir is about the weak-minded, the losers, the
bottom-feeders, the obsessives, the compulsives and the
psychopaths. Noir is about the people standing on the edge of
the abyss looking in, but about the people in it, forever
writhing, aware of the pain aware of the future pain to
come."
There is a disparity between noir in film and fiction that
goes beyond the mere difference in media. In film it's little
more than a style, whereas noir fiction embraces an entire
philosophy. Willeford describes it well in his IMMOBILIZED
MAN essay.
miker
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