At 08:42 AM 24/02/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>I truly intended to stay out of it this time, but
you
>guys seem to go to such lengths to avoid the
obvious
>that I'm forced to comment.
Ha! Gotcha.
>"Noir" dates from roughly the mid- 20th Century
for
>the simple reason that the term was coined,
by
>Gallimard's mystery editor, Marcel Duhamel,
to
>describe a type of crime fiction that was
conceived,
>gestated, and was born during that time. He
called
>Gallimard's mystery line SERIE NOIR for no
other
>reason than that it was humorous play on words.
The
>phrase, UNE SERIE NOIR, or "a black series,"
means
>roughly the same thing in France that "a run of
bad
>luck" means over here. It was just meant as
a
>humorous nickname for the (mostly) American,
(mostly)
>hard-boiled crime fiction that the company
was
>publishing in post-war France. It wasn't, and
(since
>I think the line is still in existence), isn't
meant
>to have some kind of deep, existential
meaning.
Maybe not, but "a run of bad luck" certainly lends itself to
the idea. Just a matter of the length of the run,
really.
> It
>was just a kind of humorous short-hand to describe
the
>kind of mystery novels Gallimard was publishing.
Some
>of the early SERIE NOIR authors included
such
>hard-boiled luminaries as Dashiell Hammett,
Raymond
>Chandler, Jonathan Latimer, William P. McGivern,
etc.
>
>In other words, when the word was coined to describe
a
>particular kind of crime fiction, it certainly
wasn't
>meant to EXCLUDE hard-boiled stories, and was
probably
>taken more as a synonym for hard-boiled (which is
how
>publishers in the US tend to use it now). Nor was
it
>meant to exclude any story that had good
triumphing
>over evil at the end, because that happened in a
lot
>of the SERIE NOIR books (though it also failed
to
>happen in a lot of others).
But the term is out there in the big world now. We get to
mess with it too.
>So trying to find a distinction between
"hard-boiled"
>and "noir" is an effort doomed to failure because
the
>terms, though perhaps not synonomous as US
publishers
>seem to think, are not, and were never meant to
be,
>mutually exclusive.
Maybe I missed something. Did either of us said they were? I
do recall, I think, that you had a different definition for
hardboil than you had for noir, but again, not mutually
exclusive. Why do you introduce these extra elements to
debate?
>Now if people want to go back and
retrospectively
>include, say, Wilkie Collins, or Edgar Allan Poe,
or
>even Conan Doyle, as noir (if not hard-boiled)
because
>those authors are so well able to maintain a
dark
>sinsiter atmosphere in their books, I've got no
real
>problem with that. But that the term, coined
in
>post-war France to describe a type of crime
story
>prevalent in that era, must, consequently, REFER
to
>those stories and to that era seems to obvious on
its
>face that I don't see why it's worth agonizing
over.
Not to worry. If there was any agony on my part, it was
fleeting. Thanks for your concern.
>For the simple reason that all noir is not,
by
>definition, tragic,
You've done this sort of circular argument before. Tragedy is
not the same as noir because all noir is not by definition
tragic. Not very compelling, I'm afraid. For me, noir is well
immersed in tragedy. Therefore it is not noir if it lacks any
element of tragedy. I doubt that convinces you either, though
both noir and tragedy are hot and steamy. No, wait. Make that
dark and sinister.
> and, while Shakespeare certainly
>can do the dark, sinister thing in his plays,
and
>though his tragedies contain a lot of dark,
sinister
>atmospherics, and even a lot of crime, as Kerry
points
>out later, "noir" refers to a type of CRIME
fiction,
>and crime fiction, as a genre, (as opposed to
fiction
>with crime) didn't really begin to gel as a
separate,
>distinct genre until the mid-19th Century.
Further,
>re that very comment of Kerry's . . .
That's a pretty thin edge, the difference between crime
fiction and fiction with crime. I understand what you're
getting at and I can see where such a difference would be
useful, but is there a percentage or possibly a word count I
can use as a reliable reference? I'd like to have the
distinction handy next time I'm held to account by authority:
"You see, mine is a life of crime officer, but not really a
criminal life."
>We haven't overlooked it. It was IMPLICIT, for
crying
>out loud! Rara-Avis is a list devoted to
crime
>fiction, generally, and hard-boiled/noir
fiction,
>specifically. It was always understood, or it
SHOULD
>have always been understood, that it was a
sub-species
>of crime fiction we were talking about. It
didn't
>NEED to be stated.
Sure, that's why we overlooked it. But jeez, we're trying to
settle this noir definition thing for all eternity now. It's
gone way beyond our little circle. You'd be surprised how
often I'm asked in bookstores for a definition of noir.
Seriously, you would. And wasn't some RARA AVIAN going to
deliver a paper to the UN that touched on this? Think the
Ambassador from Botswana knows what's implicit in noir? Okay
then, how about his/her secretary?
>Do you Yahoo!?
No, dammit, I don't. And I wish you'd stop asking.
Best Kerry
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