on 4/23/02 16:32, JIM DOHERTY at
jimdohertyjr@yahoo.com wrote:
> Mark,
>
>
>> By this definition, James Bond is not
hardboiled
>> because he speaks well.
>
> I never said he was hard-boiled. I personally
don't
> think he is. He is, partiuclarly as
Fleming
> originally wrote him, an upper-class British
snob.
> Fleming, for that matter, was an upper-class
British
> snob. Look at his reaction when he first learned
that
> Sean Connery (an enlisted man in the Navy, of
all
> things!) had been cast as Bond. He thought
Connery
> wasn't enough of a gentleman. He came around
later
> on, true, and even made Bond part Scottish
(something
> never mentioned before THE MAN WITH THE GOLDEN
GUN,
> Fleming's only post-movie Bond novel) in deference
to
> Connery's background, but originally he was very
upset
> because Connery wasn't elegant enough. Was (dare I
say
> it?) too colloquial.
>
>> And what about Hannibal Lecter? He's
downright
>> eloquent in his speech.
>
> Again, although I think the books he appears in
are
> hard-boiled, or at least that an argument can be
made
> that they are hard-boiled, Lector himself is
not.
> Elegance is probably as close to an
absolutely
> disqualifying characteristic as there is.
>
>> There also seems to be a class bias here.
Upper
>> class cannot be
>> hardboiled?
>
> I wouldn't want to close out the upper
classes
> absolutely, but generally I think that's
true.
> Hard-boiled crime fiction is the fiction of
the
> working class. Cozy or traditional crime fiction
is
> the fiction of the upper class. That's not
bias,
> because I'm not saying one is better than the
other.
> I'm only pointing out the obvious
differences.
> Hercule Poirot is not the same sort of character
as
> Sam Spade. They are both good, valid characters,
but
> they don't spring from the same
tradition.
>
>> What about Jason Starr's upwardly mobile
characters?
>> They seem pretty
>> damned hardboiled to me in the way they pursue
their
>> goals; does their
>> speaking well rule them out? I haven't read
McCoy's
>> Kiss Tomorrow
>> Goodbye yet, but isn't the main character
a
>> well-educated, son of
>> privilege? I'm guessing he speaks well,
too.
>
> I haven't read Jason Starr (I thought he was
a
> crippled PI character in the DC Comics universe;
who
> am I thinking of?). I've only read McCoy's
pulp
> stuff. The characters in stories like "The
Mopper-Up"
> were definitely "regular guy" working
men.
>
> JIM DOHERTY
>
>
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.
It is positively not elements such as 'elegance' or
'language' that are going to help you towards some
'definition' of "hard boiled"...there are much wider
characteristics/markers that should be used when tackling
something as difficult as a litterary genre like that...same
problem comes when one pushes the door towards Film
Noir...and, in fact, the two (hard boiled and Film Noir) are
very much linked in my mind and in many critics minds
too...(reading about that helps, I think)...and I strongly
approve of Jim's assesment that tradition/litterary origin of
a character is part of his/her hardboileness...
it's not only the words you say, but also the way you say
them and in what context... it's not only the clothes you
wear, but the way you wear them and in which situation... in
orthers words it's extremely contextual and, although some
overall characteristics and characters can be agreed
upon...the debate is sometimes very animated when 'definition
time' comes around...
...for example, I would positively agree that Bond is not
HB...but I would consider some of the scenes in the train of
"From Russia with Love" (those with Robert Shaw) as HB...but
there are only a few scenes that qualify here...and because
Bond is a mean Sam Spade type for a short while...
Steve N.
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