RARA-AVIS: RE: RARA-AVIS Digest V4 #130

From: Eddie Ouille ( EOuille@INTEGRATEDDS.NET)
Date: 12 Mar 2002

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The J.D. Hardin series of western would be hardboiled. Eddie Ouille

-----Original Message----- From: owner-rara-avis@icomm.ca [mailto: owner-rara-avis@icomm.ca] Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 7:42 PM To: rara-avis-digest@icomm.ca Subject: RARA-AVIS Digest V4 #130

RARA-AVIS Digest Monday, March 11 2002 Volume 04 : Number 130

In this issue:

   RE: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers
   Re: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers
   RE: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers: Forstater
   RE: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers: Dante
   RARA-AVIS: hardboiled sci-fi
   RE: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers
   RARA-AVIS: Re: hardboiled crossovers
   RE: RARA-AVIS: Re: poppa and pauline
   Re: RARA-AVIS: that damn chauffeur
   Re: RARA-AVIS: poppa and pauline
   Re: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers
   RARA-AVIS: Fitzgerald & Kennedy
   Re: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:04:39 -0600 From: sakana@swbell.net Subject: RE: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers

i read A TOWN TO TAME by joseph chadwick on the recommendation of this list-- it's a hardboiled western that i really, really liked. i'd love more recommendations along those lines, but i think that one is a great place to start.

martha sakana@swbell.net <mailto: sakana@swbell.net>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rara-avis@icomm.ca [mailto: owner-rara-avis@icomm.ca]On
> Behalf Of Forstater, Mathew
> Subject: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers
>
>
> Are there any Westerns people would consider hardboiled?
>
> How about hb Science Fiction?
>
> mat>

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:15:15 -0500 From: Joe Dante < joe_dante@flashmail.com> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers

At 3/11/02 05:52 PM, Forstater, Mathew wrote:
>How about hb Science Fiction?

Philip K. Dick would be on my list, DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP always struck me as hard-boiled. And Walter Mosley's story collection FUTUREWORLD has a real hard-boiled feel to it.

Some of the stuff in the "Cuber-Punk" sub-genre seems like it would qualify. Authors Neal Stephenson (SNOW CRASH) and William Gibson come to mind.

Joe D.

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:17:19 -0600 From: Todd Mason < Todd.Mason@tvguide.com> Subject: RE: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers: Forstater

Well, aside from the shortlived western companion to MANHUNT, GUNSMOKE
(which I suspect, but don't know, may've been folded after complaint/threat of trademark-infringement suit by CBS or the producers of the radio predecessor to the TV show) and such contributors to both magazines as Steve Frazee, or such similar latter-day contributors to the ZANE GREY WESTERN revival and to MIKE SHAYNE MYSTERY MAGAZINE and the other Renown Publications in the '70s as Bill Pronzini (who isn't too impressed with the work he did for ZGW, as I understand), you'll do well with the likes of Ed Gorman and Loren Estleman in western hb.

Among the most obvious descendants of hb in sf include Algis Budrys, who had one of his sf novels published by legendary hb house Lion, but whose ROGUE MOON is probably his most hb sf (his Edgar nom or winning non-sf suspense
"The Master of the Hounds" is ultraviolet noir), and such other, even more frequent amphibians such as Edward Wellen (HIJACK), Harlan Ellison, Robert Bloch, Richard Matheson (who has also dipped into westerns), and Ed Gorman again. Leigh Brackett and Fredric Brown are pretty obvious citations here; perhaps less hb is Jack/John Holbrook Vance.

- -----Original Message----- From: Forstater, Mathew [mailto: ForstaterM@umkc.edu]

Are there any Westerns people would consider hardboiled?

How about hb Science Fiction?
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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:20:47 -0600 From: Todd Mason < Todd.Mason@tvguide.com> Subject: RE: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers: Dante

"Cyberpunk," which I'm also having difficulty typing this evening. John Shirley from that group almost made my last list; Lewis Shiner's SLAM is pretty much a solid hb, but not sf like much of his other work.

Among the Splatterpunk and related horror writers, it's also hard to swing a dying cat w/o hitting hb folk: Joe R. Lansdale, Shirley, Douglas Winter, David Schow...going back a bit further, Dennis Etchison....

- -----Original Message----- From: Joe Dante [mailto: joe_dante@flashmail.com] At 3/11/02 05:52 PM, Forstater, Mathew wrote:
>How about hb Science Fiction?

Philip K. Dick would be on my list, DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP always struck me as hard-boiled. And Walter Mosley's story collection FUTUREWORLD has a real hard-boiled feel to it.

Some of the stuff in the "Cuber-Punk" sub-genre seems like it would qualify. Authors Neal Stephenson (SNOW CRASH) and William Gibson come to mind.
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:30:59 -0500 From: Robison Michael R CNIN < Robison_M@crane.navy.mil> Subject: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled sci-fi

todd says: Among the most obvious descendants of hb in sf include Algis Budrys, who had one of his sf novels published by legendary hb house Lion, but whose ROGUE MOON is probably his most hb sf (his Edgar nom or winning non-sf suspense
"The Master of the Hounds" is ultraviolet noir)...

*****************

what?!? "ultraviolet noir"? i gotta read that! thanks for the heads up.

what about some of gibson's cyber science fiction? i'm thinking that _neuromancer_ might qualify as both noir and hardboiled. that book kicks butt. i rank it right up there at the top with dune and stranger in a strange land.

miker
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:33:30 -0500 From: Robison Michael R CNIN < Robison_M@crane.navy.mil> Subject: RE: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers

joe says: Some of the stuff in the "Cuber-Punk" sub-genre seems like it would qualify. Authors Neal Stephenson (SNOW CRASH) and William Gibson come to mind.

************

hey! no fair! i wrote my post about gibson first but yours posted ahead of mine! ;-)

miker

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:09:21 -0800 From: Jim Stephenson < jestephenson@ix.netcom.com> Subject: RARA-AVIS: Re: hardboiled crossovers

> Are there any Westerns people would consider hardboiled?

Some outstanding examples off the top of my head:

*Pistolman* and *He Rode Alone* by Steve Frazee
*Adobe Walls* by W.R. Burnett
*Hombre*, *The Law at Randado*, *Valdez is Coming* by Elmore Leonard
(shoot, any western by Leonard!)
*Bitter Sage* by Frank Gruber
*Mad River* by Donald Hamilton Ed Gorman's "Guild" series (*Guild*, *Death Ground*, *Blood Game*, and
*Dark Trail*), or stand alone westerns like *Wolf Moon*

Obviously these are authors who are known for their work in crime and western genres (Frazee didn't do much crime fiction though).

Jim Stephenson
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 19:12:20 -0500 From: Robison Michael R CNIN < Robison_M@crane.navy.mil> Subject: RE: RARA-AVIS: Re: poppa and pauline

carrie said:
>Perhaps one could read the influence of Hemingway and Chandler
>as twin traditions - sometimes converging, sometimes opposed -
>behind the contemporary crime novel. Hammett's lack of senti-
>mentality (relative to Chandler) perhaps aligns him more closely
>with Hemingway?

i don't know about that. if we're separating the boys according to sentimentality, i'd put hemingway by himself in the sentimental chair and let chandler share the cold fish couch with hammett.

i didn't find a whole lot more sentiment in _the big sleep_ than i did in _the maltese falcon_ or _red harvest_. but look at _the sun also rises_. jake tries to hide his feelings but he's hurting bad over brett. and what about mike? his drunken scene involves his romantic feelings for brett. and look how purely mawkish robert cohn gets. more? how about frederick and catherine in _a farewell to arms_? how about robert jordan and his "rabbit" in
_for whom the bell tolls_?

off on a tangent:

in all of hemingway's works, he deals with one theme, and one theme only: the pursuit of heroism. and unlike his critics would lead you to believe, this is not the macho man stuff like you'll see in the _we were soldiers_ movie. hemingway's brand is the kinda heroism where you're just trying to pull together enough pieces of a scarred life to get by for another day. and he is very good at portraying this. a thousand different flavors. the cold anger of the woman in "hills like white elephants", the emotional displacement in "cat in the rain", the bitter nostalgia in "the snows of kilimanjaro", or the healing effect of nature for nick adams.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:17:42 +1100 From: "Rene Ribic" < rribic@optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: that damn chauffeur

>
> Actually, it's the chauffeur, whose name I forget, whose murder is
> unexplained. And without spoiling anything (I couldn't do it anyway
as I
> don't remember anybody's name), it's fairly apparent who killed him.
> Marlowe hypothesizes it and the perp's reaction seems to confirm it
though
> subsequent events get in the way of a confession or arrest. The issue
gets
> confused later when Marlowe tells a different story to the cops and
DA;
> however, Marlowe has deliberately changed the story in order to keep
the
> Sternwoods out of it. The issue gets further confused in the film,
because
> the scene where Marlowe discusses the case with the DA was cut.
>
> The anecdote about Chandler not remembering the killer's identity is
funny,
> but even if it's true it's told in the context of a screenwriter
(maybe
> Faulkner?) calling him up several years after he wrote the book. That
> doesn't mean he didn't know what happened when he wrote it. I didn't
know
> that TBS was based on several shorts but if so that seems to make it
more
> rather than less likely that Chandler knew the killer's identity.
It's one
> thing to finesse what ends up being a minor plot point in the course
of an
> entire novel and another to write a mystery short without a solution.
>
> Carrie
>
>
Another case of "When the facts contradict the legend, print the legend". In this case, I think the legend will stick in peoples' minds at the expense of the facts, as it has done for more than half a century already.

Rene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 11:31:36 +1100 From: "Rene Ribic" < rribic@optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: poppa and pauline

If you read "A Clean Well Lighted Place," or "The Snows
> of..." or "The Short Happy Life," and you aren't blown away by the
> extraordinary skill of the guy who wrote them (especially when you
think
> about the literary tradition he was working from) then I don't know
where
> else to point you. He was probably not the best of men, but IMO he
was a
> 20th Century giant and he was a damn fine writer.
>
> Jim Blue

Unfortunately I haven't read that much of Hemingway (I will remedy that eventually but as everyone, me included, keeps saying "... so many books
...") but I recall reading "The Snows of Kilimanjaro" as a kid of about 11 or 12. At that age I read comic books & SF/fantasy almost exclusively but I'd bought a paperback copy of "The Snows of Kilimanjaro & Other Stories" (or similar title) for my Dad as a Xmas or birthday present & as I had nothing else to read at that particular time (parents were separated & I was visiting for holidays) I read it myself. It was very affecting & moving. I need to re-read it & see how it affects me as a
(sob) middle-aged (but with young ideas!) bloke. & of course, I need to read his hardboiled shorts such as "The Killers" (one of the great film noirs although liberties may have been taken with original source material).

Rene

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:03:07 -0800 (PST) From: JIM DOHERTY < jimdohertyjr@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers

Mat,

Re your question below:

> Are there any Westerns people would consider
> hardboiled?

Loren Estleman writes an excellent series of westerns about Page Murdock, a US marshal working out of the court of a fictional federal judge clearly modeled on Isaac Parker, the best of which is probably THE STRANGLERS. His stand-alone westerns, the most recent of which is THE MASTER EXECUTIONER, are also great. And every bit as HB as his crime fiction.

Robert Randisi originated one of those long-running western PB series, THE GUNSMITH, as "J.R. Roberts." The series now numbers in the hundreds and I'm not sure whether he writes them all, or whether they're
"farmed out" like the Nick Carter spy novels or the post-Pendleton "Executioner" novels.

Matt Braun wrote a series of very tough western novels about a particularly lethal "range detective" named Lucas Starbuck. He also wrote two excellent novels fictionalizing events from the life of the man who was perhaps the greatest of all Old West peace officers, Bill Tilghman. The first book, OUTLAW KINGDOM, is about a young Tilghman on the trail of the last surviving member of the Dalton gang, Bill Doolin, in 1890s Oklahoma. ONE LAST TOWN is set in the 1920s and tells how the aged lawman came out of retirement to drive Prohibition-era gangsters out of the oil boom town of Cromwell in a manner reminiscent of RED HARVEST. It was filmed for TNT under the title YOU KNOW MY NAME with Sam Elliot perfectly cast as Tilghman.

Oh, and that Hand Held Crime story, "Red-Handed," by this Scott Morrison guy who's said to lurk here at Rara-Avis is (or at least, so I've been told) supposed to be a western/mystery that's both tough and colloquial.

JIM DOHERTY

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Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 20:35:16 -0500 From: Victoria Esposito-Shea < victoria@esposito-shea.com> Subject: RARA-AVIS: Fitzgerald & Kennedy

From Jim Blue:

>And also, the mood and cinema verite' observation in Gatsby (and
>elsewhere in Fitzgerald's work) marches in time with Chandler, Ross
McDonald,
>and others. The monied life is lush, beautiful, and empty -- romance is the
>best thing that can happen, but it is invariably doomed. Those wonderful
>opening paragraphs of "The Long Good-bye" read like much like a passage
from
>Fitzgerald.

Absolutely. Fitzgerald draws from fairy-tale traditions (dysfunctional fairy tales, really) in much the same way that Chandler did chivalrous traditions, with a very similar effect. And, interestingly enough, one of the real-life models for Gatsby was supposed to have been "Legs" Diamond, who of course became the protag of William Kennedy's first Albany novel
(and my favorite of his books that I've read).

Victoria

Victoria Esposito-Shea Editor and Co-Founder HandHeldCrime and HandHeldCrime/Coffee Cup Press http://www.handheldcrime.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:43:01 +1100 From: "Rene Ribic" < rribic@optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: hardboiled crossovers

> Are there any Westerns people would consider hardboiled?
>
> How about hb Science Fiction?
>
In SF I'm surprised to see no-one yet mention Alfred Bester's 2 classics: "The Demolished Man" & "Tiger, Tiger" (US title: "The Stars My Destination"). Both indispensable reads for anyone into popular literature of the 20th C, as well as very hardboiled. Somebody has mentioned Leigh Brackett, who has written 2 or 3 excellent hb/noir books but who is mainly remembered for her wonderful space opera stuff, much, if not all, written in a hb vernacular. Consider: "The Venus dicks were tough. They were plenty tough." You substitute Chicago
(or any other modern town) for Venus & what you have is a typical intro to a Black Mask story rather than a Planet Stories opus. Someone also mentioned Algis Budrys. Aside from "Rogue Moon", "Who?" is another rather HB-styled SF grounded in Cold War paranoia.Again, as mentioned, his short "The Master of the Hounds" is one that has to be read - one of my favourite HB/noir shorts of all time. Some of Samuel R Delany's earlier work (not familiar with later stuff) would also get a guernsey, shorts such as "Time Considered as a Helix of Semi-Precious Stones" as well as being a, if not the, major influence on William Gibson, would also qualify. Aside from all this there seems to be a strong connection between writers connected with the British New Wave SF scene of the 1960's & 1970's & modern noir - James Sallis being the main example but also writers such as M John Harrison whose most recent work is influenced by noir & who mentions in interviews that he's a fan of modern US noir writers.

Rene

------------------------------

End of RARA-AVIS Digest V4 #130
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