RARA-AVIS: RE: RARA-AVIS Digest V4 #122

From: Miano, Mark (NBC) ( Mark.Miano@nbc.com)
Date: 09 Mar 2002


Dare I add another opinion on Pelecanos? Hell, yes!

I've really enjoyed the back and forth going on here about his work. I'm envious of it too. It's better to be talked about than ignored, the saying goes. Lord knows, I wish you were all yammering about my books. Like many, I admire the way Pelecanos writes, his descriptions, his eye for detail, and the simple fact that he gets me turning pages faster than just about any writer out there. I don't know if he's a great writer, but he sure is good, and damn fun to read. Maybe that's why I overlook some of the quibbles stated in the list, some that I agree with. One unstated quibble I have is that most of his books seem to have similar plots and build to the same explosively violent outcomes. Maybe this is because I've read just about every book Pelecanos has written -- but still, those pages do keep turning. That's why I'll keep buying and reading. It's also why a friend and I are headed to his book signing at the Mystery Bookstore in LA next weekend. I can't wait to meet him.

Which leads to another subject: Mike, what did you think of LA? Did you visit any other mystery bookstores besides Terrill's? I want to hear all the gory details.

Mark

-----Original Message----- From: owner-rara-avis@icomm.ca [mailto: owner-rara-avis@icomm.ca] Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 1:56 PM To: rara-avis-digest@icomm.ca Subject: RARA-AVIS Digest V4 #122

RARA-AVIS Digest Saturday, March 9 2002 Volume 04 : Number 122

In this issue:

   Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
   Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
   Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil
   Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
   Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil
   RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil/Sacred cows
   Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
   Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
   Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil
   Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
   Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil/Sacred cows
   Re: RARA-AVIS: Crumley (was Shame the Devil/Sacred cows)
   Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith
   RE: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil
   Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith

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Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 21:03:30 +0100 From: Thomas Bauduret < suspiria@club-internet.fr> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith

le 9/03/02 18:51, WordRunner@aol.com WordRunner@aol.com a crit:

>
> In a message dated 3/9/02 11:58:06 AM, phm@midsouth.rr.com writes:
>
> << Well I'm feeling mightly lonely out here in seeing flaws in Pelecanos.
I
>
> kinda feel like I stepped into the middle of a Pelecanos appreciation
>
> society meeting. >>
>
> You stated your strongly held opinions and others stated theirs.
> Nobody's mad at anybody, and as far as I can tell, we're all just agreeing
to
> disagree.
>
Don't you think the world would be pretty boring if we all had the same tastes and agree on everything ? :)

Besides, there's a big difference between saying "I don't like this" and
"this is crap"

T.

http://www.cinebis.org/
"Le cinma de B Z"

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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:09:25 -0600 From: "a.n.smith" < ansmith@netdoor.com> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith

> Since the subject heading refers to our newest Doctor, I must ask
> whether any of the stories in his creative disser. were the sort that the
> Birds here would find interesting. (IE do disser. committees let one do
> good crime fiction these days?) Oh, congrats of course...

I tended to keep the crime writing and lit writing separate at school
(although I'm always trying to blend them, the profs were a little picky, even though they thought highly of my love of crime writing and my work in the area), but one story I published at Barcelona Review
(barcelonareview.com) was borderline. Actually, the diss/collection covered another of my obsessions--Pentecostals.

Thanks for the kind words, everyone. I did, by the way, desgnate American Hard-boiled as my major area and had to take an exam focussed on it.

Neil Smith

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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:14:14 -0600 From: "a.n.smith" < ansmith@netdoor.com> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil

> << It would be useful to put a critical eye even on some list sacred cows
> sometimes. >>
>
> Hey Paul, read him or don't. We all have our preferences, but my
> admiration of GP and my love of his work has nothing to do with "sacred
cow"
> worship.

I think, Paul, that I wouldn't have answered the criticisms had you said "I don't like this." But your thoughts touched on specific areas of his writing, and I'm not sure how we could come to such different conclusions. For example, I'll admit that Fitzgerald can write well, and he probably deserves his status, but, *man*, I hate GATSBY. Never liked his other stuff, either, and I can nitpick it to death, but I'd be outgunned by the swarms who think he's a god.

So it wasn't the personal dislike, but rather the idea that he *objectively* isn't that good. I can't agree with that.

NS

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Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2002 15:37:59 -0500 From: Kerry < gsp.schoo@skylinc.net> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith

At 10:52 AM 3/9/02 -0600, you wrote:
>George Upper wrote:
>about Pelecanos.
>I don't understand how anyone can find the characters
>in SHAME THE DEVIL anything but
>well-drawn...................................
>
>
>Well I'm feeling mightly lonely out here in seeing flaws in Pelecanos. I
>kinda feel like I stepped into the middle of a Pelecanos appreciation
>society meeting. I at least waited until he was off list before I mentioned
>anything critical of his work.

No, I thought your points interesting, in part because they were contrary to what's customarily voiced here, and in part because you explained what you found weak about the plot, and then defended your point, though you did back off a little.

I can recall only one response that actually addressed your point about the preparation for the pizza-parlour heist, and none that addressed your rebuttal. I wouldn't count saying that you are wrong and that the respondent is a more qualified authority, or that it's just a matter of opinion, as addressing your point. That's not up to the usual high level of debate here, IMHO, but maybe I missed something this time around.

Personally, I've read one Pelecanos, A Firing Offense. I liked his characterization. The people seemed real enough, having made or making difficult decisions in their uninspiring and corrupting jobs. I thought Pelecanos' style clean, clear and unobtrusive. But I too thought the plot weak. Minor characters were brought forward at the end, indicating to me that they were disposable, which I seem to recall they were.

I think I'll still read more of his work, but I found your comments helpful.

Thanks Kerry

- ------------------------------------------------------ Literary events Calendar (South Ont.) http://www.lit-electric.com The evil men do lives after them http://www.murderoutthere.com
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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:46:13 -0600 From: "Paul Miller" < phm@midsouth.rr.com> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil

a n Smith wrote: I hate GATSBY. Never liked his other stuff, either, and I can nitpick it to death, but I'd be outgunned by the swarms who think he's a god.....................................................

Well being outgunned doesn't make you wrong, watch more westerns and see how often the good guy finds himself outgunned. : ) Fitzgerald is no Faulkner of course.

So it wasn't the personal dislike, but rather the idea that he *objectively* isn't that good. I can't agree with that..........................................................

I understand. It's just my personal opinion that his characters are wooden and the prose pedestrian. I don't presume to speak for everyone because I already know that many have a high opinion of his work. I certainly don't mean to offend by offering a differing opinion and will keep quiet on Pelecanos in future.

Paul Miller

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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 14:54:47 -0600 From: "Pat Zeitoun" < pwz@tca.net> Subject: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil/Sacred cows

I've been interested in this conversation since I am being critical of one of my very favorite authors, James Crumley. Has any one read Final Country and find it as disappointing as I do?

PatZ

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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:11:37 EST From: WordRunner@aol.com Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith

In a message dated 3/9/02 3:44:12 PM, gsp.schoo@skylinc.net writes:

<< I wouldn't count saying that you are wrong and that the respondent is a more qualified authority, or that it's just a matter of opinion, as addressing your point. That's not up to the usual high level of debate here, IMHO, but maybe I missed something this time around. >>

    If you missed anything, Kerry, it was that in this situation, there wasn't any way to advance from addressing each others opinions. They were too far apart. If two people look at the same color and one sees black and the other sees white, they can note the differences, but there isn't much to discuss without doing extensive research, writing a couple of dissertations
(and Neil's done with all that) and offering rebuttals.
    I find GP's characters (even his minor ones) amazingly true and alive, people I can see and would know if I passed them on the street or heard them

on the phone. His plots seem straightforward and often linear, (which I prefer) exciting, reasonable and real, the kinds of stories that aren't contrived (except for a shoot 'em up ending or two) or constructed, but are driven by the actions of those same fascinating characters.
    When Paul read STD, he saw nothing that even approximated any of this. All we can do is shake our heads and wonder how the other guy can possibly see what he sees..
    
                                            Jim Blue
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 15:18:11 -0600 From: "M Blumenthal" < blumenidiot@21stcentury.net> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith

Paul Miller:
>
> Well I'm feeling mightly lonely out here in seeing flaws in Pelecanos. I
> kinda feel like I stepped into the middle of a Pelecanos appreciation
> society meeting. I at least waited until he was off list before I
mentioned
> anything critical of his work.

Paul, If you check the archives you would find I critized Pelecanos' work often on this list, but it was mainly because he writes about things that he is very knowledgable and interested in like modern music or cars which I don't really care about. Even though a reference may be very obscure, he includes it to satisfy himself because he feels it will add something to the understanding of a character's personality. . Obviously, considering the books' endings plots are not his greatest strength, but I feel characters and setting are.

Its good for the list to have somrone criticize one of its favorites. After this furor dies down time try taking on Willeford. Mark

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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:14:08 EST From: WordRunner@aol.com Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil

In a message dated 3/9/02 3:52:51 PM, phm@midsouth.rr.com writes:

<< I certainly don't

mean to offend by offering a differing opinion and will keep quiet on

Pelecanos in future. >>

No offense taken and please don't keep quiet about anything on my account. I enjoy reading your posts.

                                    Jim Blue
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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:29:52 EST From: WordRunner@aol.com Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith

In a message dated 3/9/02 4:14:12 PM, blumenidiot@21stcentury.net writes:

<< he writes about things that he is very knowledgeable and interested in like modern music or cars which I don't really care about. Even though a reference may be very obscure, he includes it to satisfy himself because he feels it will add something to the understanding of a character's personality. . >>

    I said earlier that I had quibbles with George P, and this is one of them. I think that the overlisting and reiteration (I know it is post modern mantra to do so, but I don't care) of song titles, rock groups, the sizes of

restaurant checks, and bar tips, etc., is distracting and too much author showoff stuff. He's so good that it makes me grind my teeth every time I find him being an auteur. However, I believe this stuff appears with less frequency and is less intrusive in his more recent work, so either he is toning it down or I'm getting immune to the problem.

                                        Jim Blue
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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:44:52 EST From: BaxDeal@aol.com Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil/Sacred cows

In a message dated 3/9/02 12:53:39 PM, pwz@tca.net writes:

<< I've been interested in this conversation since I am being critical of one

of my very favorite authors, James Crumley. Has any one read Final Country

and find it as disappointing as I do? >>

Other than the brilliant THE LAST GOOD KISS, or perhaps because of, I find much of Crumley disappointing.

John Lau
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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:51:45 -0500 (EST) From: DJ-Anonyme@webtv.net (Mark Sullivan) Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Crumley (was Shame the Devil/Sacred cows)

John wrote:

"Other than the brilliant THE LAST GOOD KISS, or perhaps because of, I find much of Crumley disappointing."

Last Good Kiss is one of my very favorite novels. I think his next, Dancing Bear, was also excellent, but I feel they have gone steadily downhill since then, although I haven't read his latest.

Mark

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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 15:58:42 -0600 From: "M Blumenthal" < blumenidiot@21stcentury.net> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith

Jim Blue:

. He's so good that it makes me grind my teeth every time I
> find him being an auteur. However, I believe this stuff appears with less
> frequency and is less intrusive in his more recent work, so either he is
> toning it down or I'm getting immune to the problem.
>
>

Jim, I had the same reaction to the first book of his I read, King Suckerman, but I persevered and now sort of glide over and ignore it. I'd like to say he has really toned it down, but objectively I can't. Mark

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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:55:53 -0500 (EST) From: DJ-Anonyme@webtv.net (Mark Sullivan) Subject: RE: RARA-AVIS: Shame the Devil

Anthony wrote:

"It's purely an arbitrary and objective concept. It would be so much easier if it was subjective, but that's never going to be so. And yeah, I know there's a lot of literary terms we can blow up each others' ass to make it should all scientific too. But the song remains the same."

While I tend to agree with the underlying notion here that art criticism is largely an exercise in rationalizing personal gut reactions, haven't subjective and objective been reversed here? How can something be both arbitrary and objective?

Mark

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Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:57:27 +1100 From: "Rene Ribic" < rribic@optusnet.com.au> Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Dr. Smith

>
> As I've yet to delve into Mr. P's ouvre, I can't add much to this
discussion
> other than to say I believe it's healthy to voice one's opinion, no
matter
> how contrary. Heck, it doesn't even have to be an informed opinion-
as those
> can lead to some mighty entertaining rejoinders. I'm certainly not
afraid to
> say what I think, no matter how idiotic or inflammatory it may be.
>
Hear, hear. I've yet to read George P myself but if I do & I don't like him I may keep the info to myself. On the other hand Paul's comments certainly seem to have woken up this sleepy list. Stick by your .45s Paul. If everybody agreed on everything life would be unbearably dull & so would this list.I may not agree with what you say .... etc, etc. Me, I've got my shotgun loaded for the next time Mike R makes an anti-Thompson crack. There are limits, after all.

Rene

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End of RARA-AVIS Digest V4 #122
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