Appreciate Richard King's sourcing hard-boiled back to WWI. And appreciate the enduring, lately apologetic Jiro for his Hammett/Hemingway piece, that anticipated mine. And when the vets, like Eugene Krebs in Hemingway's "Soldier's Home" got back, they weren't ready to buy into job, marriage; in response to his mother's question of whether he feels love for her, he gazes at the bacon fat hardening on his plate. Hemingway's TO HAVE AND HAVE NOT and"The Killers," as mentioned, have hard-boiled elements. Neither is prized as EH at his best: Lit crit prof types (like me) like to come up with formulas-- "Hemingway imitating Hemingway"--, but he could be echoing others he read. ----------- Ron Goulart in THE DIME DETECTIVES builds a case that seems convincing for Carrol John Daly's Terry Mack, later Race Williams, as the first significant serial tough guy detective, though only a few months earlier than Hammett's Continental Op in 1923. Never read Daly, and what Goulart says about his style is not encouraging. Does Goulart have it right, on both counts? I defer... While we're sourcing the world of the hard boiled or noir, we probably ought to tip the hat, at least, to the naturalists writing before WW I, who were regarded as pretty lowbrow by most establishment critics and publishers. (Hemingway is often termed a "naturalist, " given his emphasis on environment.) Surely these earlier naturalists helped "create" the fictional mean streets, the urban jungle to which tough guys and gals either adapt or don't survive . In that line, I'm reminded that adult first-time readers of Chandler--in library discussion programs -- often judge Marlowe a bit soft in the head for maintaining his loyalties longer than seems reasonable, given the social environment, the faithless characters, and the consequences for himself. In fact, I half agree with them with regard to THE LONG GOODBYE. Liked Robert Altman's movie ending better than Chandler's. OK, should be something here to feed on, chew up, spit out.... Bill Hagen billha@ionet.net - # RARA-AVIS: To unsubscribe, say "unsubscribe rara-avis" # to majordomo@icomm.ca