> So, I wonder if this could be used as a point of differentiation > between hardboiled and crime novels. I'd be interested to hear of > any evidence pro or con. I've seen some lists that try to define > what it is that makes a film noir - has anyone seen anything like > that for hardboiled fiction? Maybe we could try to iron one out as > we go. Anyway, it's nice to have a list where I can talk about this > kind of thing. :) It seems to me that it's a case of apples & oranges, depending on what you mean by hardboiled. Based on the examples cited: Spade, Hammer, Archer, etc. I take it that you equate hardboiled fiction with detective fiction. I tend to view crime fiction as a genre, detective fiction as a sub-genre of that and hardboiled as a style not necessarily associated with either. The works of James M. Cain & Jim Thompson are as hardboiled as it gets and I associate neither author with detectiive fiction. While the majority of fiction written in the hardboiled style is in fact crime/detective fiction, I would imagine that's because those genres are naturally suited to the style. I've never viewed Cain's "Mildred Pierce" as crime fiction, but it most certainly written in the hardboiled style. A definition of the style would, I think, be pretty subjective. For example, one could say from Chandler's work that it's an attitude of cynicism tempered by cautious optimism. Chandler's dark clouds are never *completely* dark, his may be an amoral world, but it's the moral few that succeed in it. Chandler spoke of this theme in his "Simple Art of Murder" essay, stating his belief that all great art must have a "quality of redemption", I don't necessarily agree with that, but it is consistent throughout his work. Then take Jim Thompson, relentlessly downbeat and hopeless. So hardboiled as to be pessimism in it purist form. His world is completely amoral and no "quality of redemption" is to be found. This said, I still find Chandler's characters no less hard boiled than Thompson's, just hard in a different way. It's as if they walk two different sides of the same mean streets. Chandler's Marlowe is hard in the sense that while he recognized the chaos and corruption that surrounded him, he refused to succumb to it. He reached his ends on his terms, and made others conform to him. He was hardened against the negative world around him, and overcame through sheer force of will(and sometimes force of lead:-)) Thompson's characters OTOH, were hard in the sense that they were participants in the corruption of their worlds, they were hardened against any kind of positve emotion, thinking only of themselves and usually, but not always leading to their own destruction and that of those around them. Smack in the middle of this we find James M. Cain. His characters were IMO the most complex and closest to reality. They were neither knights in shining armor as Chandler envisioned Marlowe, nor soulless contemptible beasts as Thompson painted his. Cain's characters were average everyday people with consiences, who unfortunately succumed to their baser desires. Walter Huff, the insurance salesman of "Double Indemnity", isn't a murderous type of guy, it takes half the book for him to rationalize his actions befor commiting them and the rest of the book agonizing over the guilt before confessing and joining Phyllis, who despite the fact that she is the murderous type, is still clearly conscious of her guilt in the books double suicide finale. Similar circumstances engulf Frank Chambers and Cora Papadakis in "The Postman Always Rings Twice". Alone neither of these people has murderous intent, but by giving in to their lust and greed they're able to rationalize that killing Nick is the thing to do. Both are racked with guilt and fear almost immediately after the commission fo the act and it is this "softness" that proves to be their undoing. It's this same "softness" that allows them some self-forgiveness at the end. There are no truly "hard" characters in Cain's works, these are soft willed people in a "hard" world that eventually devours them. Three equally hardboiled authors, three distinct outlooks: Chandler - A man hardened against his environment. Thompson - Hard people creating a hard environment. Cain - Weak people destroyed by a hard environment. I guess the only common thread is the hard world all of these tales take place in. Of course, I could be missing the point entirely too:-) Bill "Not the comedian" Murray bmurray@voicenet.com Visit "Hard Boiled" at http://www.voicenet.com/~bmurray/index.html Guinness is good for you! It give you strength! - # RARA-AVIS: To unsubscribe, say "unsubscribe rara-avis" # to majordomo@icomm.ca