Macbeth is noir because he kills to get to where he thinks he wants to be. R&J
is tragedy because love should not be a crime. My two cents ...
Sean Shapiro
________________________________
From: "gsp.schoo@MOT.com" <gsp.schoo@murderoutthere.com>
To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, August 12, 2010 5:01:47 PM
Subject: Re: RARA-AVIS: Re: Noir -- Penzler, Kerry and MRT
I take exactly the opposite track, Dave. If a moral line is crossed it's
tragedy. There's an implied lesson. But in noir there's no alternative, no
opportunity for redemption. Lets take Romeo & Julliette. At the end, the Prince
sums up the errors of everyone's ways that led to the fatalities, encouraging
better behaviour in the future. Macbeth could have avoided his end had he been
less ambitious, Hamlet if he'd been more decisive. Those are tragedies. But if
you believe R&J's young love is doomed regardless because love will never
transcend tribalism, that's noir.
Best,
Kerry
----- Original Message -----
From: davezeltserman
To: rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 9:51 AM
Subject: RARA-AVIS: Re: Noir -- Penzler, Kerry and MRT
It has to has to be more than just a character being screwed, the character's
actions have to contribute to them being screwed. A moral line has to be crossed
that there's no turning back from. Otherwise, instead of noir it's tragedy.
--Dave
--- In rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com, Jack Bludis <buildsnburns@...> wrote:
>
> Not sure about the conflict between what Kerry Schooley says and what Jacques
>Debierue (MRT) says.
>
>
> I agree with Kerry that the screwed character of noir may have a moral core but
>it gets skewed, most often by money or the femme fatale. And yes, the PI novel
>is romantic fantasy.
>
> MrT says of the moral code, "... such codes are rarely personal but instead are
>largely societal." I've never heard that before, but it seems right on target.
>Chandler's entire description of the private-eye in his famous essay points
>directly to the judeo-christian ethic.
>
> Yes, just "Screwed" is shorthand for noir, but it does describe the protagonist
>of such fiction. The absolute evil protagonist is not noir at all, but something
>entirely different.
>
>
> Jack
>
> http://crimespace.ning.com/profile/JackBludis
>
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