--- In
rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Zeltserman"
<davezelt@c...> wrote:
>
> Jason,
>
> Thank you for taking my post out of
context
I don't think I did, actually...
To be precise I
> mentioned Hammett, Thomnpson, and Cain, and I didn't
state that
> writers today should do this, but that it if the
above writers
> could do it than it can be done. I also discussed my
own internal
> struggle with this - whether using profanities is
the easy way out
> and just displaying a lack of skill or whether it
makes the writing
> more natural. And hypotheticals like "My guess is
that Thompson and
> Cain, and especially Goodis, would have loved to use
more natural
> street language but simply couldn't" is kind of
ridiculous (or
> should I say "fucking" ridiculous).
No, actually, this happens to be true of crime fiction and
literature in general from the '50s...It's not hypothetical,
it's a fact that writers were constrained then and I used
Goodis as the likely example...You're correct that Thompson
was old fashioned in that way-- so that's a good point--but
Thompson was also a product of his time and upbringing...If
he born in the '60s or '70s and writing today would his
language be affected? Absolutely...
Actually, everything I've read
> about Thompson would contradict that statement - he
was kind of an
> old fashioned guy who couldn't understand Stanley
Kubrick not
> wearing a suit to work. Did Willeford use
profanities in his
> writing? I've read a lot of his works, and that
doesn't stand out.
> Going to have to double check on that.
>
> Btw. I've seldom (if ever) found Hammett's
writing/dialogue
awkward,
> but I've found many current writers who try to use
street language
> sounding awkward and unnatural.
>
> Won't get into The Pulp Fiction question since I
love that movie,
> and besides I wasn't talking about movies, but
really talking about
> my own internal struggle on the issue. So don't take
offense - I'm
> not saying what you should do or implying any lack
of skill on your
> part, but more questioning out loud what I should be
doing.
No offense taken at all. I thought we were just
generalizing...but Stella should be offended! (LOL)
>
> -Dave Z.
>
> --- In
rara-avis-l@yahoogroups.com, "crimeflix"
<jmks100@a...>
wrote:
> >
> > A poster the other day talked about how
Thompson, Cain, Chandler,
> etc
> > wrote excellent tough prose without cursing, so
writers today
> should
> > do the same...This really doesn't make sense to
me at all. Of
> course
> > it's possible to write tough without cursing
but writers in
> the '50s
> > were constrained by the times. My guess is that
Thompson and
Cain,
> > and especially Goodis, would have loved to use
more natural
street
> > language but simply couldn't--their publishers
wouldn't have all
> owed
> > it. Good writing usually overcomes this but
sometimes the lack of
> > profanities in writers for that era sticks out
for me. I love
> > Highsmith, for example, but sometimes her
writing seems awkard to
> me
> > when she writes something like "he cursed"
without letting us
know
> > what the curse is...IMHO, George V. Higgins
really opened up the
> > language of crime fiction with the The Friends
of Eddie Coyle,
and
> > later Willeford and Leonard picked up the
torch...Today, I think,
> > crime writers have much more freedom of
language the 50's pulp
> > writers, and this is a good thing....Similarly,
the language in
> crime
> > films has evolved. Think Double Indemnity vs.
Pulp Fiction?
> Because
> > Double Indemnity was effective without cursing
that means that
> Pulp
> > Fiction should've had no cursing because Double
Indemnity was a
> > classic? Sorry, but that just doesn't hold up
for me.....
> > J
> > http://www.jasonstarr.com
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