At 11:34 AM 10/03/2005 -0800, you wrote:
>You might need to explain what you mean by
>transcendence, and how it's an element of tragedy
but
>not noir. I'm a little hazy. You're saying
that
>tragedy deals with characteristics of an afterlife?
I
>don't think you're saying that.
Sorry to be obtuse Mike. I'm not always sure what I mean
myself.
I used to figure noir precluded redemption, but came to
realize that redemption was just one form of transcendence,
in a particular kind of circumstance. I think where you and I
differ is that you are taking the view of protagonists in
noir stories where I am trying to imagine the genre's
objective, or the point of view of authors writing it.
Perhaps I'm wrong to do that.
Anyway, in western society I figure we are all about
transcending our circumstances, or our environment, and by
and large our literature reflects that. If I can get this
job, win this race, get so and so to love me, get the other
guy to realize he's being an ass or defeat him in some way,
get myself elected emperor, overcome my weaknesses, have
faith in Jesus, drain the swamp, make a million bucks, then
life will be better. It is about humans having the power to
change the world because it's not quite right as it is.
Religion is all about using faith to rise above the human
condition, and our literature (based to a large degree on
structures and themes in the bible, according to Northrop
Frye) is mostly about the protagonist overcoming or
transcending the antagonist to achieve an objective. That's
the romantic view.
In the tragic view either the protagonist's objective is
flawed, or she/he is flawed in some way as to fail to achieve
the objective, or both. But it is presumed that the flaw is
avoidable. Decent folks will have the character to avoid
unseemly ambition, or to have worthy objectives. Tragedy is
meant to be instructive, I think. If Romeo and Juliette had
been more patient, if their families had learned to bury
their quarrels, love would have endured and their world at
least would have been a better place. That's the tragedy. A
romantic view would say that the kids are in a better place,
the priest having delivered them to heaven where love rages
endlessly, and the tragedy is endured only by those left
behind.
I think the existentialist influence makes noir different.
Love will always be impatient, and people will always form
themselves into clans, and there is no afterlife. Flaw is
part of the human condition and the human condition is the
way people are. Noir says there is only one way to transcend
the human condition and that is to die. It's better to
survive. Ironically, one aspect of the human condition seems
to be a constant dissatisfaction and the desire to transcend
it, and it is the depiction of people trying to transcend the
human condition that makes noir a comic genre.
Or I could just be confused, again.
Best, Kerry
>miker
>
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