Charlie Williams wrote:
I know what noir is for me.
********** I'm pretty much a newbie with both noir and
hardboiled, so I'm in the process of coming up with
definitions that works for me. Some important things have
come out of this thread for me which has shifted my
definition. Everything below is about noir fiction.
Although I know that the separation between noir content and
noir atmosphere has been raised before, I didn't pay much
attention to it then. It hit home this time. Like I had
suspected for some time, noir content requires an ending with
the protagonist either dead or in dire straits. I agree with
Al's comment that the
"screwed" aspect has to involve attitude. If the characters
simply don't give a damn, it's not noir. You gotta see em
sweat. The other thing I see, which I have also always
suspected, is that the restriction to an origin in early
twentieth century American crime literature is fairly
arbitrary. I am also pretty well convinced that American
naturalism is noir's daddy, and that Gothic is noir's
granddaddy.
I really appreciate everybody taking the time to enter into
the discussion. I think that some people feel that "The"
semi-annual noir discussion is just the same old thing over
and over, but I don't buy that. Each time it comes up there
are different nuances that are explored to different depths
and degrees. I find it 100% enlightening.
Thanks again, miker
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