The pandorra box is open... one more time.
As so often with popular literature, classification and
sorting is fuzzy because the lack of adequate vocabulary
labelling the genres, characters...etc. Then, just imagine
when it involved cross-culture links!
How interesting this discussion can be we must keep in mind
that NOIR is a French word applied to mystery by analogy and
*not* by filiation between the genres
(Noir/HB and gothic).
"Litterature noire" was used in France at least since early
19th Century to name what in English is... the gothic
literature (type of lit appearing in England around 1760 and
later boosted by the romantic movement) and the word noir is
still used in that effect until late in the 20th
Century.
As the pessimism of Noir/HB, its "thriller" effect, the
absence of conventional morality, and its acumulation of
violence made that in France, by analogy Serie Noire was
first to use the word Noir
(1945) in that way: *evoking* the horror and negative image
of the "litterature noire" in order to distinguish HB mystery
from the classic mystery and detection novels... but not
implying it was the continuation of gothic, or its
heir.
Later as you know the word was applied to some American
films... and now, today in France "roman noir" is the word
that covers all the HB/Noir novel domain (not yet so in the
USA).
I think that "mystery pulp followed by HB and Noir" come more
directly from some segments of the popular literature
appearing early the 19th Century and that produced works of
low literary value (most of the time) but of high imagination
and intended for a mass market (already): there were the
feuilletons in France, or the novels distributed door to
door, the dime novels...etc elsewhere. This popular
literature was certainly using some gore and fantastic under
influence from the gothic lit, but it was also using all the
other tricks(melodrama, action, morality demonstrations,
tales, epic, adventures...) In America you finally got
something like pulps of all kinds long before the emergence
of mystery pulps during the 20's (but here I'm not having the
complete details).
I personally think that from time to time, and even very
recently , gore and gothic can be disguised as mysteries or
Noir, increasing the confusion, and I feel Thomas Harris and
his Hannibal is exactly that. And not Noir taking some gothic
aspects.
And even if some Noir authors use some gore effects it's only
occasional and not as a typical aspect of the HB/Noir genre.
Noir involves some existential aspect in its plots, that is
almost absent from the gothic tradition.
I'm more inclined to think that modern gore/gothic could
reach Noir by twisting its characters than the
opposite.
"Fankenstein" by Mary Shelley is certainly an example where
we can find some Noir/existential traits. And there will be
other examples in the modern gore I'm sure.
And, yes definitely, modern horror is descending directly
from the gothic tradition.
>...just as the modern
> mystery/detective/hardoiled/noir novel.
>
But I cannot agree with the above sentence.
I stop here, being already too long, and probably
boring.
E.Borgers Hard-Boiled Mysteries
http;//www.geocities.com/Athens/6384
--- "a.n.smith" <
ansmith@netdoor.com> wrote:
>
> > I think there is also some sort of
general
> consensus that "noir" sort of
> > transcends genres (assuming that "noir" is
a
> style, as opposed to genre
> > yadda yadda yadda.)
> >
> > Starting from there, does anyone have any
thoughts
> on "noir horror?" For
> > one thing, the modern horror novel is something
of
> a descendant of the
> > Gothic novel, just as the modern
> mystery/detective/hardoiled/noir novel.
>
> I'm glad you mentioned this, as I am taking
a
> graduate seminar on the Gothic
> novel right now, and had the same thought about
pulp
> and noir being so
> closely aligned. The professor said about
my
> thought, "To equate pulp with
> gothic is to do violence to both terms." Which
I
> think is a pretty awful
> thing to say. Gothic and noir share so
many
> elements, but because of the
> "feminization" of gothic early on, they sort
of
> laughed my comments off, as
> they were moreinterested in talking about
gender
> issues and historical
> perspective in defining what gothic is. So, where
I
> thought I was going to
> enjoy the class, it seems now I've been
chastised
> for bringing up the noir
> aspect I so looked forward to exploring.
>
> Geez. I still think I'm right. Thanks,
Tribe.
>
> --
>
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